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Post by t3c on Apr 8, 2015 13:11:54 GMT
What are folks thoughts on DS? Lots of bits popping up around London recently and a show/print release at Graffik in May which i'm really looking forward too
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Post by dazarino on Apr 8, 2015 16:11:46 GMT
I think dolk is playing his career really smart in my opinion.The demand far out strips the supply. If he just now brings out one release a year (2-3 print drop) that will surely increase the desirability of his work?
Nick walker stated he got this same advice on his career ,ignored it completely,flooded the market with work and it got devalued over night.
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Post by eschiff on Apr 8, 2015 16:16:58 GMT
dazarino that brings up an interesting point about artists career...in fact, it could be an interesting thread. Who's career would you rather have? Dolk or Whatson? Stik or Ernest Z? I guess artists ideally would love commercial success and to be respected as 'artistes' but it seems some make a choice (looking at most of GPs roster) that making some money over a 5 year span is worth more than artistic integrity. There is nothing inherently wrong with that choice, everyone is entitled to make as much money as they can doing something they love, however it leaves me (as a collector) a bit cold.
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Post by sɐǝpı ɟo uoıʇɐɹǝpǝɟ on Apr 8, 2015 16:25:42 GMT
dazarino that brings up an interesting point about artists career...in fact, it could be an interesting thread. Who's career would you rather have? Dolk or Whatson? Stik or Ernest Z? I guess artists ideally would love commercial success and to be respected as 'artistes' but it seems some make a choice (looking at most of GPs roster) that making some money over a 5 year span is worth more than artistic integrity. There is nothing inherently wrong with that choice, everyone is entitled to make as much money as they can doing something they love, however it leaves me (as a collector) a bit cold. Definitely agree. I won't name names, but the many artists churning out prints every couple of months, with little to no deviation in their work, might be making money now but are setting themselves up for failure in the long run. Maybe this is a conscience choice (to strike while the iron is hot, and get out of the game in a few years), or maybe they're surrounding themselves with the wrong people |
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Post by amberhalo on Apr 8, 2015 16:27:48 GMT
Would it be too much to ask for Miss Bugs to actually put a complete show up?
I suspect they are doing fine with just commissions, and I don't own any original work (sadly). But I'd travel to see an entire gallery show stuffed with their resin work.
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Post by dazarino on Apr 8, 2015 16:33:03 GMT
I think all depends on who your trying to sell to and your market audience.if the mass market/high street is where you want to sit then call up jj adams for advice on how it's done.I think gp are trying to aim for mass market by producing a huge amount of work,but this will never have longevity if only sold from one source.if they decided to only publish and sell through high street galleries then whatson and ernest would be far more well known.
To me,these two are currently a bit in the middle of both, which is not where you want to be.
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Post by eschiff on Apr 8, 2015 16:39:40 GMT
Also important to remember, as you said, that galleries are making money off this as well. They have costs, but are taking anywhere from 20% to 60% of sales for an artist. Then inherently creates a dichotomy of earnings and production vs artistic merit I suppose.
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Post by dazarino on Apr 8, 2015 16:54:01 GMT
Wow 60%? I did see zanda having problems with opus,artists have to be careful and rely on the transparency of these buisnesses.i sent him their company credit report.Not doing as well as they want us to believe. Credit score of 5/100
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Post by amberhalo on Apr 8, 2015 18:21:17 GMT
Speaking of Charming...
Charming Baker Studio
Charming Baker has been back in the Jealous Print Studio and generously donated this beautiful monoprint to The Sick Children's Trust auction, which raised a huge £8,000 for the charity and formed part of the £113,000 grand total of the night!
The monoprint forms part of a new series which will be launched at Art15 in May on the Jealous Stand E1. . .more details coming soon!  |
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Post by notmattl on Apr 8, 2015 18:46:09 GMT
Given this is Charming Baker, I assume he hasn't simply called it "Heli on wallpaper". Must have some sort of convoluted name for sure !
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Post by hidden on Apr 8, 2015 19:17:24 GMT
Would also like to see Qbic travel and perhaps a show this year? A big +1 to this. He needs to get out of Russia for a bit and gain some more exposure. Tremendous work, but I feel like he is stuck in a little bubble. Working on it. He started to receive invitations from US and Europe so discussing now. |
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Post by supercockle on Apr 8, 2015 19:48:03 GMT
Hi hidden. Good to see you here. |
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Post by 886geary on Apr 8, 2015 21:02:04 GMT
dazarino that brings up an interesting point about artists career...in fact, it could be an interesting thread. Who's career would you rather have? Dolk or Whatson? Stik or Ernest Z? I guess artists ideally would love commercial success and to be respected as 'artistes' but it seems some make a choice (looking at most of GPs roster) that making some money over a 5 year span is worth more than artistic integrity. There is nothing inherently wrong with that choice, everyone is entitled to make as much money as they can doing something they love, however it leaves me (as a collector) a bit cold. I think looking at how an artist conducts himself is overlooked at times for collectors. Sure we all say buy what you like and all that but really most of you are seasoned collectors and that doesnt always work out. I think its a first rule but if you are really collecting work for a collection that you might need to sell later to buy more work as you move up as a collector you need to pay attention to details and how an artist maintains his career is one of those things you should be paying attention to, especially if you are buying expensive AP's or Originals. I will say that artists that dont have set goals of working on exhibitions can be very successful for a period of time financially but what do they have to show for it in 5 years. Its borderline commercial art in some cases. I also dont think artists that only paint murals, or only exhibit in galleries are the perfect fit. I say this as someone who curated before I started to run my own space now and who is also an artist and has watched other artists peers, friends navigate through this crazy scene. There is no right path but there are things you should look out for if you are trying to gauge where an artist is headed. Hype is crazy in our field, and everything looks better from the outside looking in. The reality of sales and what artists are making very skewed. As an artist in the instagram age it is easier to make a living selling some work here and there through commissions, its even easier for collectors to score commissions from artists now. It actually is trickling down and effecting the sales of galleries substantially. I think its a correction that will correct itself as galleries adapt to the changes. But I see a very negative impact of this as well but its more of a career issue as many artists who dont have a big picture outlook end of hurting themselves for short gain. An artist no longer needs a gallery to sell work which is ok as galleries always choose what artists to stand behind and exhibit. Its a more equal relationship now and artists that have the financial vision to take the commission money and set up there own exhibitions as pop ups will do good. But galleries also will work with artists that have a long term vision for themselves as well, meaning work within the gallery system and move up the ladder building a career through exhibitions. We have 2 different models, I believe unless your banksy or MBW with the financial sense to create your own brand and do your own exhibitions then it will be tough for those artists that choose money over being an exhibiting artist. For an exhibiting artist there is room for growth that does not depend on the artist worrying about how to fund their next exhibition and doing PR, and making sure they kept a collector list to invite and so forth. These seem like small things but when your creating art you are creating art, your not in it to be a business or maybe you are in some cases. I can go on into more depth as this is one of the key talks I have with artists as a Gallerist now and also as an artist, there are no wrong or right answers really. Each has to do what they need, but for me I choose to exhibit as an artist and grow as my work grows if I am asked a commission I might do one a year for a good friend or collector but my focus is on my career and the world doesnt get to enjoy commissions or ever see them. I cant build a body of work around commissions, I can only create something I might have already left behind me. I choose to do a print to allow people to get something small or cheaper. But Its my vision I have each artist is different. |
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Post by illu on Apr 8, 2015 22:24:22 GMT
Keen to see what else etam cru come up with. yea, two of my favourite artists atm, they paint awesome stuff! |
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Post by eschiff on Apr 9, 2015 7:58:21 GMT
886geary cheers for your insightful post. I guess it raises some more questions that you can perhaps provide a unique insight. As you're invested into a gallery and all the associated costs, there must be a level of sales you need to reach each month/quarter/year to pay overheads and employees. While some artists that you have in your group exhibition produce wonderful work, I imagine sometimes a lot ends up in storage. Of course you know if you did put on a print show with the GP group, it may feel dirty, but your bills would get paid. When you speak with artists who come to you, either for advice or looking for partnerships, how to you determine which ones to work with? Is it simply who excites you from an artistic point of view? Because that seems like an idealistic vision, but one that isn't conducive to continuing to hold a gallery space and pay for exhibitions. That's an interesting point you raise about commissions, I had never thought about that eating into a gallery's pocket. Do you know of any artists that are doing what you say? Actually taking commissions and using them to fund exhibitions rather than print releases/holidays? I'm guessing it's not a huge list.
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Post by 886geary on Apr 9, 2015 9:00:57 GMT
886geary cheers for your insightful post. I guess it raises some more questions that you can perhaps provide a unique insight. As you're invested into a gallery and all the associated costs, there must be a level of sales you need to reach each month/quarter/year to pay overheads and employees. While some artists that you have in your group exhibition produce wonderful work, I imagine sometimes a lot ends up in storage. Of course you know if you did put on a print show with the GP group, it may feel dirty, but your bills would get paid. When you speak with artists who come to you, either for advice or looking for partnerships, how to you determine which ones to work with? Is it simply who excites you from an artistic point of view? Because that seems like an idealistic vision, but one that isn't conducive to continuing to hold a gallery space and pay for exhibitions. That's an interesting point you raise about commissions, I had never thought about that eating into a gallery's pocket. Do you know of any artists that are doing what you say? Actually taking commissions and using them to fund exhibitions rather than print releases/holidays? I'm guessing it's not a huge list. Yeah you can imagine the overhead in SF where Tech is really changing the city again on the scale of the original Dot.com boom running a gallery is an expensive venture. Its a crazy story how I ended up in the space but thats another story for another time if anyone see's me in person maybe over a beer. But yes as you can imagine it is very tough knowing that you can take a show your heart isnt into and make money like a GP show or something similar. Maybe I am a dreamer but I hope to follow the path I have already started and try to balance the right shows. Most of my first year shows are nothing to what I have planned as most of the first 6 months is playing cathcup due to so many artists being booked. Also working on group shows right away helps me understand the market place and collector base. Its one thing to know who is popular and another to who people actually buy into, and another for artists to be embraced that suprise you. As far as picking artists its a work in progress there are so many variables I take into account as their is a financial aspect to it, but its not the deciding factor for me. Having curated content for the blog the last 5 years I was able to study my genre really well and learn about so many new artists. I take what I have built with the blog and my prior curating and stick to that initial vision when choosing artists to exhibit. It has to fit into what I believe in as a curator and what I can translate to the shows and collectors. One of the biggest issues the artists including myself have had was galleries taking the hype that many of the artists get booking a exhibit and thinking they will sell work, sometimes its that easy but most times an artist gets a great exhibition but dont sell work, some galleries overestimate a artists market or do a bad job relating it to their collector base. Over the years this has been the case for many artists and one thing I set out to do was not let this happen and make sure I stick to what I know. My version of keeping it simple I guess by sticking to what I know. Lucky for me I have been in touch with hundreds of artists I believe in now I just have to figure a way to build something cohesive around that at the same time making enough money to maintain the gallery but most importantly get the artist sales. Im very cautious of large solos as artists take months sometimes half a year to build a body of work for a large solo and if the gallery cant sell work artists can lose faith, its happened to many artists I know. The third question, I am not sure I know any artists actually doing this because most artists dont have enough commissions to do this and also some just take the money and live. I am sure you can name many artists from 2007-2010 that where at the top and then disappeared. I am sure they still sell work but fell off the map as most their work goes to private collectors and they rarely exhibit. Some artists are content with making a living, some are intent on making it a career. I have seen a couple artists throw popups but I cant remember any big names off the top of my head. I think it might start to happen though as even Galleries are going online and cant afford the overhead for brick and mortar spaces. Look at the GP show in penang its a popup, I am sure there are others. Another model I am seeing from galleries and I have to say I am not a fan is putting 50 artists in a show with all small work the same size I wont name names but it seems to be a hot thing that does have its perks, but over and over again it seems like a copout for doing a real exhibition. There is something to be said for a solo or small group exhibition curated well with great artists or giving an artist a space to not only create work but an experience. It would be a shame to see these galleries go away and only witness Murals and art online. Time will tell but I am lucky to have a beatiful space and the chance to share something with SF and those watching online. Side note now being in SF there is a bit of pressure to work with Local artists as well as they support the scene, so this new wrinkle also has opened my eye up to local art once again as well. |
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Post by eschiff on Apr 9, 2015 9:10:37 GMT
interesting you mention collectors. As a modest collector I have varying relationships with different galleries. Some choose to send me a sales pdf before it goes out to the public, some invite me to exhibitions before they open and some don't do any of that. I must say, it's not the ones that just send me a pdf that get my attention, but the ones that try to involve me (as an observer) into the artists exhibition. As a collector, there is nothing more amazing/satisfying/wonderful then seeing an exhibition come to fruition and get a chance to speak with the artist. Now I'm not a big spender, I wish i had the cash to splash around on everything I love but don't. But I have enough to buy small pieces here and there and really appreciate the galleries that seem to cater to my interest in their artists rather than my purchasing power. It's the reason i created the interesting gallery thread, in an effort to learn more about smaller galleries (like Howard Griffin...though with his expansion to LA not sure how small they are anymore!) that are doing exciting things. And i'll take you up on that beer 886geary ! I get out to San Fran every couple years so will let you know. |
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Post by alittle on Apr 9, 2015 9:18:19 GMT
Another model I am seeing from galleries and I have to say I am not a fan is putting 50 artists in a show with all small work the same size I wont name names but it seems to be a hot thing that does have its perks, but over and over again it seems like a copout for doing a real exhibition. The only galleries I can think of that do this are ones who also do full scale exhibitions. Curious as to who you are referring to here. |
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Post by feralthings on Apr 9, 2015 9:23:02 GMT
Really interesting post; I've just quoted a few short sections for the sake of brevity. I think its a first rule but if you are really collecting work for a collection that you might need to sell later to buy more work as you move up as a collector you need to pay attention to details and how an artist maintains his career is one of those things you should be paying attention to, especially if you are buying expensive AP's or Originals. I think I'm coming at the same point from a different perspective. I can't imagine ever imagine selling any of the pieces that I've bought but it's still important to me how an artist maintains their career and develops their work. Seeing that piece within the context of a larger, developing body of work gives that individual piece that bit more meaning to me and that bit more enjoyment for myself. I've got pieces by artists which they painted at the start of their careers and which are a little bit rough around the edges but I like the fact that I can see ideas in those pieces which they've since developed and the work feels like it's part of a much bigger story. As an artist in the instagram age it is easier to make a living selling some work here and there through commissions, its even easier for collectors to score commissions from artists now. It actually is trickling down and effecting the sales of galleries substantially. I think its a correction that will correct itself as galleries adapt to the changes. But I see a very negative impact of this as well but its more of a career issue as many artists who dont have a big picture outlook end of hurting themselves for short gain. An artist no longer needs a gallery to sell work which is ok as galleries always choose what artists to stand behind and exhibit. Its a more equal relationship now and artists that have the financial vision to take the commission money and set up there own exhibitions as pop ups will do good. In Bristol the only permanent, commercial galleries that seem to last any period of time are either a) sustaining themselves by selling paint etc., or b) selling decorative art. Pop-up shows have definitely been king over the last few years and I can see why people would be weary of financially committing to permanent physical gallery space. Andy from POW has put on some great pop-up shows and Ed from The Future Tense has just moved to Bristol so hopefully we might see some from him too. In Paris and the US there seems to be a wealth of galleries representing urban artists but that doesn't seem to be the case in the UK, especially for the more established artists. |
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Post by 886geary on Apr 9, 2015 9:50:00 GMT
Another model I am seeing from galleries and I have to say I am not a fan is putting 50 artists in a show with all small work the same size I wont name names but it seems to be a hot thing that does have its perks, but over and over again it seems like a copout for doing a real exhibition. The only galleries I can think of that do this are ones who also do full scale exhibitions. Curious as to who you are referring to here. Ive done it myself and Curators such as Sven with his shows over the years pioneered it atleast from when I first saw it, I know many galleries that have done these shows but there are a handful that do them quite frequently compared to other spaces. Yes they also do regular shows but it seems to be trending, and its not a trend I would like to see regularly. I have even seen it in Basel, and art fairs which is great for the artists 40 artists getting to be in an artfair but what does it say about the curating and standing behind even 10-15 artists. And to me that is alot. Its just my thinking and I know from experience these shows do well as you have so much to choose from at a small price point compared to large work its a financially succesful model, but sparingly maybe or odd months. |
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Post by 886geary on Apr 9, 2015 9:52:27 GMT
interesting you mention collectors. As a modest collector I have varying relationships with different galleries. Some choose to send me a sales pdf before it goes out to the public, some invite me to exhibitions before they open and some don't do any of that. I must say, it's not the ones that just send me a pdf that get my attention, but the ones that try to involve me (as an observer) into the artists exhibition. As a collector, there is nothing more amazing/satisfying/wonderful then seeing an exhibition come to fruition and get a chance to speak with the artist. Now I'm not a big spender, I wish i had the cash to splash around on everything I love but don't. But I have enough to buy small pieces here and there and really appreciate the galleries that seem to cater to my interest in their artists rather than my purchasing power. It's the reason i created the interesting gallery thread, in an effort to learn more about smaller galleries (like Howard Griffin...though with his expansion to LA not sure how small they are anymore!) that are doing exciting things. And i'll take you up on that beer 886geary ! I get out to San Fran every couple years so will let you know. I think this is what a Gallery should strive for, and I myself am very new to this aspect but it is one that I will learn soon enough and hope I can communicate what I know as much as I can. Just let me know Beer is on me. |
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Post by amberhalo on Apr 9, 2015 17:30:14 GMT
Given this is Charming Baker, I assume he hasn't simply called it "Heli on wallpaper". Must have some sort of convoluted name for sure ! haha, indeed! The names of his paintings are like song titles. I dig that, but I can see others who might think that's a bit self indulgent. |
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Post by dot on Apr 9, 2015 18:26:46 GMT
Given this is Charming Baker, I assume he hasn't simply called it "Heli on wallpaper". Must have some sort of convoluted name for sure ! you're asking for a caption competition are you not ? |
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Post by notmattl on Apr 9, 2015 18:29:41 GMT
Thanks 886gearyFascinating topic and some very enlightening points. Exhilarating to read as this is exactly what a place like this should be about |
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Post by notmattl on Apr 9, 2015 18:31:35 GMT
you're asking for a caption competition are you not ? That would actually be a great Charming Baker-esque name for the piece !!! |
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