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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 19:18:27 GMT
Recall looking at that page for a while, before we decided that the premium for the signed simply wasn't worth it.
Lee3 - thank you for your insightful posts on this thread, very interesting for a pleb like me to know how the auction process works in case of need.
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Post by disdig1 on Jun 17, 2015 19:21:16 GMT
lee is always bursting with the knowledge, always appreciated!
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Post by redneck on Jun 17, 2015 19:23:53 GMT
lee is always bursting with the knowledge, always appreciated! What disdig1 said |
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Post by lee3 on Jun 17, 2015 19:28:41 GMT
Aw shucks thanks gents. Lots of good input on this thread regarding a subject i care deeply about. Nicer still to contribute at a venue where participation is not regulated to the Nth degree.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 20:05:48 GMT
lee is always bursting with the knowledge, always appreciated! Always enjoy Lees post, ive learnt alot over the last number of years from him/feralthings etc etc its easy remembering prices etc but the true knowledge is shared from these guys and much appreciated.... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 20:49:00 GMT
Just got on some really interesting points Lee. I do and have bought at auction a fair bit just cause it's very reliable when your international and with the decent houses pretty safe. We obviously avoid the VAT so although you pay the premium you used to be able to get a Banksy at a decent price not often now though!!
But regardless the commissions, VAT, artists rights etc really do not matter as when you buy at auction a reasonable amount you already have that fig in your head so the same as buying anything else you know the total fit in base numbers. So when you pull the trigger you know the end price ball park.
But think this pretty much highlights where his prices are at so in anwser to the thread question I don't think the bubble has burst as I am not sure it is a bubble anymore.
Think he just moved into the next price level and seems to be settling there. With a bubble burst one expects a relitively dramatic fall in prices and just do not see that happening really.
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Post by poledance on Jun 17, 2015 20:50:25 GMT
I'd say those were right where they should be, from page 1: "If I were looking for any of those (I'm not) I would expect to be paying 8k+ for WSM, 20k+ for the rat, 12k+ for HC, 40k+ for Kate and 40k+ for GWB. There is just no chance that they go unsold which is not to confuse realism with overconfidence. " They are, after all, prints and any print doing $80k+ is in the upper echelon price wise of all artists collectively. If a bubble is bursting, then the sales would be littered with buy-ins as they were in October '08 and February '09. There is just no evidence to suggest that is true. First reports out of Basel are suggesting record sales and whatnot. The wealth divide continues to exacerbate which a collective problem for us all but it's tough to argue against art doing very well given such a backdrop. Lee spot on as always ! ;-) I might have helped a bit to avoid too low a price on one of these ;-) So you literally just asked the question to plump up your chest and crow a little, what a surprise |
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 17, 2015 21:03:23 GMT
Just got on some really interesting points Lee. I do and have bought at auction a fair bit just cause it's very reliable when your international and with the decent houses pretty safe. We obviously avoid the VAT so although you pay the premium you used to be able to get a Banksy at a decent price not often now though!! But regardless the commissions, VAT, artists rights etc really do not matter as when you buy at auction a reasonable amount you already have that fig in your head so the same as buying anything else you know the total fit in base numbers. So when you pull the trigger you know the end price ball park. But think this pretty much highlights where his prices are at so in anwser to the thread question I don't think the bubble has burst as I am not sure it is a bubble anymore. Think he just moved into the next price level and seems to be settling there. With a bubble burst one expects a relitively dramatic fall in prices and just do not see that happening really. Is it a hubble bubble, Johnny ?  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2015 21:18:50 GMT
hubblebubble. Yes mate it certainly is a Hubble bubble seems everyone needs someone to blame It's official now it's your f#%in fault.  you are now the price devil bubble creator incarnate.....the sooner you burst the happier everyone will be. So when will you be bursting???
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 17, 2015 22:14:24 GMT
If I keep on the way I am with Pringles and lager ... Not long!
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Post by jeezuzjonessnr on Jun 17, 2015 22:38:02 GMT
>>>I can say with absolute clarity and fact is that I know of a GWRB that sold privately for £50k within the last couple of months.<<< Mind boggling to be honest.  At the time I couldn't decide if I wanted the signed Gwrb or the Love Rat and when I'd decided I wanted the girl it was sold out. Not that I'm complaining (a lot) and my rat is still on my wall, but... In 2011 we came into a a bit of money and I discussed with my wife we should buy GWRB as an investment (like a University fund for the kids), I emailed two galleries one in the states had one for US$15k (9500 pounds). We didn't go for it and we haven't bought any as investment, spent the money on our new house.. but amazing how much the prices have increased in 4 years. |
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Post by blade on Jun 18, 2015 3:26:27 GMT
If a signed GWRB sells for shall we say £50-60K now, any one care to hazard a guess on what the going rate for a unsigned is? I suspect there is a big premium for the Banksy signature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 5:13:25 GMT
If a signed GWRB sells for shall we say £50-60K now, any one care to hazard a guess on what the going rate for a unsigned is? I suspect there is a big premium for the Banksy signature. In a retail setting, close to £15k condition dependant |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 5:39:39 GMT
If a signed GWRB sells for shall we say £50-60K now, any one care to hazard a guess on what the going rate for a unsigned is? I suspect there is a big premium for the Banksy signature. In a retail setting, close to £15k condition dependant 15k unsigned wow that's a price. Lot of talk and Lee mentioned the unsigned. Andy& Lee might be able to help here. Been a pretty steep rise as mentioned recently for the unsigned but as things have settled has their sort of percentage relationship to signed changed. In that my thoughts/impression and is just that as not greatly up on prices so based on no facts is that the relationship is similar but signed jumped before the unsigned as did the canvas's. So using the GWRB base figs above of 15K for unS and the say 60k S so basically 25% of the price is that not say roughly as expected eg forgetting the prices red balloon unS is basically 25% most of the time. Eg prior to the unsigned jump it was lagging behind a bit. So signed jumped then unsigned followed and prices are now kind of in harmony with each other. As say apologies not based on data be interested as say to Hear what Andy @castlegalleryni and lee3 think on this as they know prices now and before |
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Post by dungle on Jun 18, 2015 5:44:01 GMT
At the time I couldn't decide if I wanted the signed Gwrb or the Love Rat and when I'd decided I wanted the girl it was sold out. Not that I'm complaining (a lot) and my rat is still on my wall, but... In 2011 we came into a a bit of money and I discussed with my wife we should buy GWRB as an investment (like a University fund for the kids), I emailed two galleries one in the states had one for US$15k (9500 pounds). We didn't go for it and we haven't bought any as investment, spent the money on our new house.. but amazing how much the prices have increased in 4 years. If you're in London the investment in a house will have been a better investment in terms of capital growth |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 6:23:01 GMT
In a retail setting, close to £15k condition dependant 15k unsigned wow that's a price. Lot of talk and Lee mentioned the unsigned. Andy& Lee might be able to help here. Been a pretty steep rise as mentioned recently for the unsigned but as things have settled has their sort of percentage relationship to signed changed. In that my thoughts/impression and is just that as not greatly up on prices so based on no facts is that the relationship is similar but signed jumped before the unsigned as did the canvas's. So using the GWRB base figs above of 15K for unS and the say 60k S so basically 25% of the price is that not say roughly as expected eg forgetting the prices red balloon unS is basically 25% most of the time. Eg prior to the unsigned jump it was lagging behind a bit. So signed jumped then unsigned followed and prices are now kind of in harmony with each other. As say apologies not based on data be interested as say to Hear what Andy @castlegalleryni and lee3 think on this as they know prices now and before Lees been around alot longer than me so i can only really comment on prices since end 2011, it was between a 3 to 1 ratio and 4 to 1 almost across the board with a few exceptions, Gwb was more between 4 to 1 and 5 to 1, the unsigned Gwb start 2012 i think was around 4k retail, it sat at 4-5 for a while without much change then jumped to around 6500, again sat at that for a while then over the last 18months everytime one was sold/offered it was new record up until now, i sold an unsigned perfect condition for 13k earlier in the year but have buyers now at close to 15k and likely 15k if one becomes available, with Signed there was a similar pattern with Signed rising first creating a bigger gap and unsigned following. With alot of the other prints signed/unsigned ratio was getting smaller this last year especially with some as low as 1/2, thats why i feel unsigned are likely to settle now for a time and if a rise happens its likely to be with some signed, particularly AP colour variations and rarities as the prices become more elitist so to speak. Different prints seem to come to favour at different times, overall as the ratio of signed to unsigned narrows focus shifts back to the signature. Thats my take anyway, interested to hear Lees take on it especially in the longer time period. |
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 18, 2015 7:04:05 GMT
If a signed GWRB sells for shall we say £50-60K now, any one care to hazard a guess on what the going rate for a unsigned is? I suspect there is a big premium for the Banksy signature. In a retail setting, close to £15k condition dependant I'd say that's spot on, Andy |
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Post by jeezuzjonessnr on Jun 18, 2015 7:05:59 GMT
In 2011 we came into a a bit of money and I discussed with my wife we should buy GWRB as an investment (like a University fund for the kids), I emailed two galleries one in the states had one for US$15k (9500 pounds). We didn't go for it and we haven't bought any as investment, spent the money on our new house.. but amazing how much the prices have increased in 4 years. If you're in London the investment in a house will have been a better investment in terms of capital growth Yeah the money went into upgrading our place here in Oz.. Prices increasing here, a huge bubble they reckon can't see it popping soon as there is too much foreign investment.. Same as London. |
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Post by shootagain on Jun 18, 2015 7:28:29 GMT
In 2011 we came into a a bit of money and I discussed with my wife we should buy GWRB as an investment (like a University fund for the kids), I emailed two galleries one in the states had one for US$15k (9500 pounds). We didn't go for it and we haven't bought any as investment, spent the money on our new house.. but amazing how much the prices have increased in 4 years. If you're in London the investment in a house will have been a better investment in terms of capital growth Agree. Even more so when you look over a longer period : a house in Hampstead is currently on the market for £17mio... it was bought for £165K back in 1985 ;-) That's a hefty 17% per year !!! |
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 18, 2015 8:57:04 GMT
If you're in London the investment in a house will have been a better investment in terms of capital growth Agree. Even more so when you look over a longer period : a house in Hampstead is currently on the market for £17mio... it was bought for £165K back in 1985 ;-) That's a hefty 17% per year !!! Agree with the sentiment on money into property. It's not so much about percentages though, Shoot, as £9,500 to over £56,000 in four years is something like 150% per year. What the £9,500 invested in a house would allow is for the 'gap' to grow. So if £9.5k was spent on a house that cost £400k, four years ago, and the house is now worth £500k, then the £9.5k has 'become' £100k which is (tax free) growth at a rate of 250% per annum. Now that's a result! That said… you need £9.5k disposable and also £400k in the first place (or at least you need to be able to bank roll it via a mortgage) to be able to buy into the ability to make so much money via property. In buying the original art, you just need £9.5k disposable. I've probably got my sums wrong and my head hurts but it's interesting. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 9:32:33 GMT
[/quote]Lees been around alot longer than me so i can only really comment on prices since end 2011, it was between a 3 to 1 ratio and 4 to 1 almost across the board with a few exceptions, Gwb was more between 4 to 1 and 5 to 1, the unsigned Gwb start 2012 i think was around 4k retail, it sat at 4-5 for a while without much change then jumped to around 6500, again sat at that for a while then over the last 18months everytime one was sold/offered it was new record up until now, i sold an unsigned perfect condition for 13k earlier in the year but have buyers now at close to 15k and likely 15k if one becomes available, with Signed there was a similar pattern with Signed rising first creating a bigger gap and unsigned following. With alot of the other prints signed/unsigned ratio was getting smaller this last year especially with some as low as 1/2, thats why i feel unsigned are likely to settle now for a time and if a rise happens its likely to be with some signed, particularly AP colour variations and rarities as the prices become more elitist so to speak. Different prints seem to come to favour at different times, overall as the ratio of signed to unsigned narrows focus shifts back to the signature. Thats my take anyway, interested to hear Lees take on it especially in the longer time period.[/quote][ Andy Thx so much for taking the time and detail in your reply. Really interesting to hear as based on market facts rather than opinions. As say mine was just an opinion based on very little other than what I thought. so great to hear it from someone who deals with Banksy's price as a fact of life as it were. Thx mate and likewise would be int to hear lee3 's take on it if he gets the chance. |
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Post by lee3 on Jun 18, 2015 15:57:45 GMT
Johnny, I haven't the faintest clue on unsigned/signed relationships. I was mentored in this hobby by those who would consider buying a print without a signature as a fools errand; they have also suggested a painting without one is fine with proper authentication but not a print. As mad as that advice reads at face, it's kind of always made sense to me across the whole spectrum of art and I've followed it. They've given me plenty of other sage advice so I bow to their wisdom.
To me, the unsigned were all the images I never considered buying for the reasons above at 500 pence back in yesteryear. Then they became a grand and have continued to appreciate exponentially in many cases since. I don't feel regret or foolish as I'm grateful for what I have but those are the facts. Sorry for the long winded answer but afraid I'm of no help here other than to suggest that 15k for an unsigned anything in the edtioned market is mental.
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Post by shootagain on Jun 18, 2015 16:04:45 GMT
Johnny, I haven't the faintest clue on unsigned/signed relationships. I was mentored in this hobby by those who would consider buying a print without a signature as a fools errand; they have also suggested a painting without one is fine with proper authentication but not a print. As mad as that advice reads at face, it's kind of always made sense to me across the whole spectrum of art and I've followed it. They've given me plenty of other sage advice so I bow to their wisdom. To me, the unsigned were all the images I never considered buying for the reasons above at 500 pence back in yesteryear. Then they became a grand and have continued to appreciate exponentially in many cases since. I don't feel regret or foolish as I'm grateful for what I have but those are the facts. Sorry for the long winded answer but afraid I'm of no help here other than to suggest that 15k for an unsigned anything is mental. VERY wise advice which I've always followed as well and always will... |
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 18, 2015 16:13:41 GMT
Yup. Don't think I own anything that doesn't have a signature on it.
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 18, 2015 16:14:13 GMT
Okay… maybe a couple of original movie posters
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