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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 16:15:29 GMT
Johnny, I haven't the faintest clue on unsigned/signed relationships. I was mentored in this hobby by those who would consider buying a print without a signature as a fools errand; they have also suggested a painting without one is fine with proper authentication but not a print. As mad as that advice reads at face, it's kind of always made sense to me across the whole spectrum of art and I've followed it. They've given me plenty of other sage advice so I bow to their wisdom. To me, the unsigned were all the images I never considered buying for the reasons above at 500 pence back in yesteryear. Then they became a grand and have continued to appreciate exponentially in many cases since. I don't feel regret or foolish as I'm grateful for what I have but those are the facts. Sorry for the long winded answer but afraid I'm of no help here other than to suggest that 15k for an unsigned anything is mental. Ha ha brilliant thx for a big dose of reality....... Always needed. Must confess I am similar in that always go for the signed or did when had the chance but do have a couple of unsigned. Qv &TW but even the signed when purchased were in the unsigned market many cheaper. His game/market has changed a lot these are quite amazing prices but like you said earlier about the art show and auction figs it's not slowing..... Tweaking etc but the art prices/auction sales etc are not slowing Many thx Jh |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 16:50:35 GMT
When i was first introduced to Banksy i was a bit nervous handing out a fair sum of money on something id no knowledge of whatsoever, the person offering me prints said if youre not comfortable you could always buy a few unsigned which are cheaper, i think my reply was along the lines of "are you serious, people buy unsigned prints for that money", it was alien to me and i went for the signed Napalm, the rats were 1100 at the time, i've concentrated on signed mostly but theres no doubt theres a strong market for his unsigned, if it wasnt for the pc coa stating this is an authentic artwork by Banksy and the fact faking is much more difficult if buyers go through the right process because of pc i dont think the unsigned would have risen anywhere near as much. The flipside is GWB carries a 40k premium for a pencil signature, the prints are exactly the same and both are numbered and supposedly both have the artists mark in a sense, both are authenticated as genuine works of art. Do agree though, in the long run collectors will always go signed over unsigned if able.
It is a pretty unique market in most ways
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 17:10:05 GMT
Agree. Even more so when you look over a longer period : a house in Hampstead is currently on the market for £17mio... it was bought for £165K back in 1985 ;-) That's a hefty 17% per year !!! Agree with the sentiment on money into property. It's not so much about percentages though, Shoot, as £9,500 to over £56,000 in four years is something like 150% per year. What the £9,500 invested in a house would allow is for the 'gap' to grow. So if £9.5k was spent on a house that cost £400k, four years ago, and the house is now worth £500k, then the £9.5k has 'become' £100k which is (tax free) growth at a rate of 250% per annum. Now that's a result! That said… you need £9.5k disposable and also £400k in the first place (or at least you need to be able to bank roll it via a mortgage) to be able to buy into the ability to make so much money via property. In buying the original art, you just need £9.5k disposable. I've probably got my sums wrong and my head hurts but it's interesting. If you invested £400K and £9.5K was part of that, then in a few years your house was worth £500K, then your return on capital is based around £409.5K, not £9.5K, so a piss poor return when compared to purely buying a print for £9.5K. An an asset class in isolation, Banksy prints must be right up there from an investment perspective? Hardly any surprise then that people are willing to fight over them in overnight queues? There can never be another release from source imo. |
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Post by hubblebubble on Jun 18, 2015 17:47:38 GMT
Agree with the sentiment on money into property. It's not so much about percentages though, Shoot, as £9,500 to over £56,000 in four years is something like 150% per year. What the £9,500 invested in a house would allow is for the 'gap' to grow. So if £9.5k was spent on a house that cost £400k, four years ago, and the house is now worth £500k, then the £9.5k has 'become' £100k which is (tax free) growth at a rate of 250% per annum. Now that's a result! That said… you need £9.5k disposable and also £400k in the first place (or at least you need to be able to bank roll it via a mortgage) to be able to buy into the ability to make so much money via property. In buying the original art, you just need £9.5k disposable. I've probably got my sums wrong and my head hurts but it's interesting. If you invested £400K and £9.5K was part of that, then in a few years your house was worth £500K, then your return on capital is based around £409.5K, not £9.5K, so a piss poor return when compared to purely buying a print for £9.5K. An an asset class in isolation, Banksy prints must be right up there from an investment perspective? Hardly any surprise then that people are willing to fight over them in overnight queues? There can never be another release from source imo. I knew my maths was rubbish, vera.  And they're releasing from source all the time. It's just that folks aren't fighting over them any more. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 18:07:42 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct?
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Post by blackappleart on Jun 18, 2015 18:17:13 GMT
These threads pop up every year once or twice and it's always a fairly simple equation. Supply and demand..period. Art or anything of value just doesn't "POP" or "Crash" without underlying forces causing it which directly affect the supply and or the demand in some way. VIP prints aside, there has not been any new significant supply in 5 years, so unless there is a barrage of releases pending, I don't see the supply factor having any impact on pricing. With demand I do agree it has slowed since BOTI but that is a general cycle for any globally viewed occupation or stunt he may do. NY was a massive one so it stands to reason there would be larger than normal demand to follow. That said, demand I believe is still increasing over all. So with no new significant supply and increasing demand you can expect prices to increase. Sure they will never always give the same year over year return but there are no indications of anything that would be the true definition of a financial "bubble". These are new uncharted waters and there never has been an artist, or what I call the "anti-artist", who has done what Banksy has done. He has literally produced less as his notoriety and demand has grown and then stopped publically releasing pieces all together at the very top. The exact reverse of what any other artist would do and has done. Can there be a "crash" of his work in the future.... of course, but not under the current market conditions. What comes in the future no one knows, but I'd bet on him doing exactly what he has been doing....Being constantly clever, elusive and in demand.  |
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Post by hermit on Jun 18, 2015 20:15:37 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? While there are a few people on here that could answer your question it's a safe bet that they won't |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 20:21:25 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? While there are a few people on here that could answer your question it's a safe bet that they won't first rule of fight club kind of thing? 
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Post by sɐǝpı ɟo uoıʇɐɹǝpǝɟ on Jun 18, 2015 20:51:48 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? short answer is, yes |
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Post by sɐǝpı ɟo uoıʇɐɹǝpǝɟ on Jun 18, 2015 20:53:48 GMT
I think if we're talking about the price of Banksy prints, there has to be mention of the manipulation of prices by POW themselves. discuss |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 20:55:06 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? short answer is, yes 2 new prints since the last general release people with money and people who don't shout about it save for ruggs who's obviously a prick simple |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 20:57:43 GMT
I think if we're talking about the price of Banksy prints, there has to be mention of the manipulation of prices by POW themselves. discuss Well let's start with why you think this |
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Post by sɐǝpı ɟo uoıʇɐɹǝpǝɟ on Jun 18, 2015 21:03:47 GMT
I think if we're talking about the price of Banksy prints, there has to be mention of the manipulation of prices by POW themselves. discuss Well let's start with why you think this well, here's the most obvious/public example (yes, I know it was "renegade" staffers, but it still happened on POW's watch) www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/25/artnews.art2 I'll keep my mouth shut on my other thoughts for the time being |
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Post by Dr. Plip on Jun 18, 2015 21:06:52 GMT
Well let's start with why you think this well, here's the most obvious/public example (yes, I know it was "renegade" staffers, but it still happened on POW's watch www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/25/artnews.art2 I'll keep my mouth shut on my other thoughts for the time being No, no. Please continue |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 21:07:08 GMT
2 new prints since the last general release people with money and people who don't shout about it save for ruggs who's obviously a prick simple I don't know who ruggs is. That being said, if I had one of those "Dumbo" or "Love Hurts" (I presume those are the two you're talking about.) prints, I'd scream it from the rooftops. Why is it important to keep secret? Is it becuase POW and Banksy don't want to have to ignore a few more thousand email requests? Does it all come down to inbox flooding? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 21:10:26 GMT
If POW (and therefore Banksy) wanted to create a market for their product, it would have been pretty simple. It would not have required many people. I'm not saying that is what happened. Is it something that I've thought? Yes. If, and that is a BIG if, it happened, it probably was more to show how easily a market can be manipulated and not because of greed. |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 21:10:28 GMT
Well let's start with why you think this well, here's the most obvious/public example (yes, I know it was "renegade" staffers, but it still happened on POW's watch) www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/25/artnews.art2 I'll keep my mouth shut on my other thoughts for the time being 2007 fuck me I actually thought you were basing this on some new information So come on thoughts |
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Post by sɐǝpı ɟo uoıʇɐɹǝpǝɟ on Jun 18, 2015 21:12:35 GMT
well, here's the most obvious/public example (yes, I know it was "renegade" staffers, but it still happened on POW's watch) www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/sep/25/artnews.art2 I'll keep my mouth shut on my other thoughts for the time being 2007 fuck me I actually thought you were basing this on some new information So come on thoughts shill bidding to inflate prices back in 2007 would have a direct effect on prices today. as for other things that have gone on, I'm sure there's people on here with a lot more knowledge than me and I'd love to hear what they think... don't think it's any secret that Banksy's always had some business savvy people in his circle |
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Post by Dr. Plip on Jun 18, 2015 21:13:36 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? While there are a few people on here that could answer your question it's a safe bet that they won't If you've been asked to keep it quiet, I can understand going along with that. What matters more? Your word? The respect of the artist that you admire? The admiration of other internet-based art fans? And that's without going into the consequences of burning any bridges. But I think you're correct. There are people on here that could share quite a bit of Banksy artwork and information. But then things wouldn't be as much fun would they? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2015 21:24:16 GMT
While there are a few people on here that could answer your question it's a safe bet that they won't If you've been asked to keep it quiet, I can understand going along with that. What matters more? The respect of the artist that you admire? Or the admiration of other internet-based art fans? And that's without going into the consequences of burning any bridges. But I think you're correct. There are people on here that could share quite a bit of Banksy artwork and information. But then things wouldn't be as fun would they? True. The mystery is like 90% of the fun for me. I've never been a big fan of his print work, except for No Ball Games. |
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Post by manty on Jun 18, 2015 21:26:52 GMT
There can never be another release from source imo. I agree It always seemed to be cold when they release them, and being made to queue as well in the cold, and also having to pretend you know what the fuck it you are queuing for. let the rich have them, they have more class, me, i am going to go back to putting empty crisp packets in the oven and flogging them |
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Post by Dr. Plip on Jun 18, 2015 21:49:22 GMT
2007 fuck me I actually thought you were basing this on some new information So come on thoughts shill bidding to inflate prices back in 2007 would have a direct effect on prices today. as for other things that have gone on, I'm sure there's people on here with a lot more knowledge than me and I'd love to hear what they think... don't think it's any secret that Banksy's always had some business savvy people in his circle You're ruining it for me. I always thought Banksy just fucked about a bit. |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 21:50:21 GMT
My understanding is that Banksy prints are still being printed and released to a very targeted audience. My question is: "Who are these people?" I've heard people who assisted on BOTI and other projects, long time buyers and other assorted VIP's. Is this correct? short answer is, yes Look it's simple very simple Pow do not need the shit of 100,000+ people hassling them constantly If you'd ever sold a banksy you'd know you get people offering you a cunt raisen canvas, a toblerone and a sob story Time and money wasted, when you can deal with a controlled small number of people who aren't fucking idiots. And guess what? You make more money. Control Power Money |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 21:52:40 GMT
2007 fuck me I actually thought you were basing this on some new information So come on thoughts shill bidding to inflate prices back in 2007 would have a direct effect on prices today. as for other things that have gone on, I'm sure there's people on here with a lot more knowledge than me and I'd love to hear what they think... don't think it's any secret that Banksy's always had some business savvy people in his circle I'd say the 2006 show and brad and ange have done wayyyyyy more than this easily |
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Post by poledance on Jun 18, 2015 21:54:34 GMT
There can never be another release from source imo. I agree It always seemed to be cold when they release them, and being made to queue as well in the cold, and also having to pretend you know what the fuck it you are queuing for. let the rich have them, they have more class, me, i am going to go back to putting empty crisp packets in the oven and flogging them There's been 2 new releases from source - next |
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